MotoGP: Aluminum or carbon? Deltabox or carrier? Rossi or Stoner?
The title of our article summarizes all the questions that enthusiasts and professionals are asking themselves in 2011. Valentino Rossi's debacle with Ducati was absolutely not predictable, at least not in these terms. The nine-time world champion, after testing the Ducati for the first time in Valencia (where he was still with a bad shoulder), had given precise instructions to the Borgo Panigale technicians who would have to resolve the lack of feeling with the front end of the Desmosedici . In further tests there was not the hoped-for improvement and Rossi started the world championship without having the bike under control.
In Ducati they thought it was only a matter of time (and shoulder) and "blinded" by the performances that Casey Stoner (current world championship leader and 2007 champion with the two-wheeled Red) had had with that bike, they moved forward without major upheavals . Then the podium (lucky given Pedrosa's fall and Simoncelli's penalty) at Le Mans and the fifth place in Catalunya "only" 7.371 behind the winner (Stoner) confused things even more.
Then came Silverstone, a real debacle for Rossi and the Ducati who qualified with the 13th time and ended the race in sixth position, but 1:04.526 behind the winner (Stoner)! From there a descent began that seems to have no end; In fact, the GP11.1 had debuted at Assen and Rossi, after qualifying eleventh, 1.846 from pole, finished the race fourth (which might seem like an excellent result) but 30.684 from Spies.
Then Mugello, sixth at 26.450, Sachsenring, ninth at 27.576, Laguna Seca, sixth at 30.351, Brno, sixth at 12.632, Indianapolis, tenth at 55.345, Misano, seventh at 23.703 and Aragon, where on track with the GP11.2 equipped with the aluminum chassis finished tenth at 39.832 after starting from the pit lane due to having failed the seventh engine of the season.
Right now it's difficult to understand what Rossi lacks in order to go fast with the Ducati. The nine-time world champion immediately after the race on Sunday he went down hard by launching not-so-veiled criticisms even talking about riding position, the first thing that gets put in place when a rider gets on a new motorcycle. The truth could lie in the middle and that is that the Ducati will not be this supermoto, but also that Rossi has intentionally given up on the oars given the too many crashes he suffered, especially in practice and during the tests! But to be honest, the only one guilty of this situation is an Australian born in Southport on 16 October 1985 and who with that motorbike made thousands of enthusiasts dream and delude themselves!
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“””””But to be honest, the only one guilty of this situation is an Australian born in Southport on 16 October 1985 and who with that motorbike made thousands of enthusiasts dream and delude!”””””
Deluded or not deluded, falls or not falls, for us Ducati fans, he made us dream, anyway, despite never having been a fan of Rossi, the square will be found, then not all donuts come out with a hole....
I don't know if you didn't read between the lines but it seems like a great compliment to Stoner to me!
wait until Stoner wins 9 world titles
then you can judge it!
He won't win them because like the good Australian he is he will retire soon (unfortunately I add) and will enjoy his family... he's been traveling around in campers and planes all his life... he misses his Australia
Aluminum, deltabox, Rossi.
Stoner won the world championship with that "brand", not with that bike...
In Jerez Ducati will test a new open double cradle frame. New revolution, new disappointment? If Rossi takes it from Stoner on equal terms I'm sorry, but that's how races are. But seeing Rossi saying he was happy with 7th place in Brno shocks me. However, Stoner was very good, if he wasn't there the championship would go to Lorenzo again
but you just can't write a decent article, can you? even the use of a dictionary of synonyms and antonyms could be useful for you.
@Pnickz – What's wrong with this article? I don't want to defend anyone but if you wanted to make a useless controversy you did it very well!!
At Misano the experts said that unfortunately for Ducati this year's Japanese bikes are too strong compared to the Ducati which was left behind...Rossi does what he can with the few tests available which there are he cannot do the miracles.....anyway the feeling of someone that Rossi doesn't put much effort into it...seeing as the front doesn't meet his needs...I'm sorry because I'm a Ducati fan but I didn't think it was in such bad shape because a driver does not forget to drive from one year to the next……
Well everyone continues to say that Stoner was strong (true) but few remember that last year Hayden was also good (in Aragon he finished third ahead of Lorenzo - who would have won the world championship - this year he finished behind Bautista , over 30" from the winner. So perhaps the 2011 one isn't exactly the best Ducati seen on the track...
Does anyone know anything about the 2 engines proposed to Rossi during his test last year?
1 rigid and more powerful and the second more elastic?
@Stilix
Nobody knows exactly... Meda spoke today that a deltabox (closed cradle structure) will be tested in Jerez...
On gpone we talk about an open cradle, using the engine as a semi-supporting…
The certain thing is that, assuming a "definitive" solution, it still takes time to prepare it and make it work as best as possible... Lots of tests need to be done, stiffness etc...
Another thing: the structure SHOULD (sportmediaset) go well with the old engine mounts, and therefore COULD also be used on the 800...
However, I am sure of one thing... ONLY Ducati personnel know exactly what they are doing :)...
Even the 1198 seemed like a bike to be thrown away after 2010, and instead in the hands of Carlos Checa, with a private team and without development by the official manufacturer it seems unbeatable. It's not the bike that needs changing, the problem is just Rossi arriving with the presumption of being the best when he isn't. He may have won 9 world titles but the one Casey won in 2007 is worth more than all his combined. Go Preziosi, Go Ducati, Valentino Go away.
Giuseppe 749, you are a clear example of someone who talks nonsense, the title of stoner is worth more than 9 titles won with two different motorbikes, including the Yamaha which hadn't won in a lifetime.
For a skimpy title, look at how many times Rolling Stoner has fallen and how many mistakes he makes when he has an opponent's motorbike stuck to his ass.
I know that many Stonerians will not agree but if you read the times carefully you will realize that Stoner would not have done better than Rossi this year with this Ducati.
The reality is that Yamaha and especially Honda have made a huge step forward this year while Ducati has remained stagnant.
This can be understood from many comparisons:
1. Hayden had a decent championship last year while this year he is struggling (like all the Ducati riders). Yet the bike and rider have not changed... BUT THE OPPOSING BIKES HAVE GROWN A LOT
2. Honda has taken a giant step and you can't see it from Stoner but from those who already drove it. Last year Dovi and Simoncelli couldn't see the Yamahas (of Lorenzo and Rossi) not even with binoculars today Lorenzo (who in my opinion is the best at the moment) struggles with them too
Stoner is good but he was lucky enough to end up in Ducati when they surprised everyone with the best bike in 2007 and in Honda in the year in which they made a leap above the others.
Gentlemen, STONER hasn't raced since this year. He has been in the world championship for 11 years and has always had excellent bikes. If he was the phenomenon you say he should have won MUCH more. In reality he is an excellent rider, very spectacular but OVERALL clearly inferior to Rossi and Lorenzo.
Dear anti-reds, I too hope that Valentino leaves Ducati as soon as possible, given that he still has a few years of career left, but have you thought about the consequences of this choice? Which top rider, given Valentino's failure (like it or not he is... but let's face it, the best of all time) will dare to ride a Ducati? and the sponsor?... will he run away too...
I'm just saying, too bad. I too would have liked a winning Italian combination, but Ducati, and this is what had always stopped Vale, has a philosophy and capabilities that are too "limited".
CIAO!
It seems to me that the speakers on this site try to discredit Rossi; the other day I saw an interview on sport mediaset with Nicky Hayden who stated "the gp11.1 is better than last year's bike, the other bikes have made giant strides".
Having said that, on this site they haven't mentioned even two lines about this interview, yet they often refer to Mediaset sports!?
To tell the truth, in Aragon Stoner (who dominated with Honda this year) went slower than last year with Ducati… so……….
A motorcycle is not just made of engine and frame, but both participate in the final result. I try a different approach to the problem and say that Preziosi wasn't wrong, but neither was Valentino. It's just that Stoner comes off the bike more in the corners, and minimizes certain characteristics that have always been typical of Ducati. I'll be wrong...
dear to use your head
Stoner of official motorbikes until I arrived at Ducati and only had one for one year
Mister Rossi has always been an official from the beginning
Furthermore, he has always raced without a teammate
the first was Colin Edwards, among other things taken only because he was an official Michelin test driver
followed by Michelin with preferential compounds
built on Saturday on the basis of official tests
the first year, with equal treatment, the bike and tires were purchased from Jorge Lorenzo
final
as Lorenzo said: the important thing is not losing... it's knowing how to lose...
I agree that the world championship won by Stoner with a Ducati and one won with a Honda is more important
In terms of records in Moto GP Stoner, I think he's done enough
STONER!
zuzu are you stupid? but if in aragon he made a fast lap record and race time record with honda and you tell me that last year he went faster? but did you see the race?
@andrea z.
Since you called me a "dumb" without informing you, the real "Dumb" with a capital "S" is you
total race time 2011 – 23 laps – 42'17.427
total race time 2010 – 23 laps – 42'16.530
The math is not an opinion!!
Well, even a stupid child sees the fact that the articles on this site are written by journalists who are not only blatantly anti-Rossi, but even more passionately pro-Stoner, but in their defense it must be said that we are just humble guests in their house and therefore let's not trigger useless controversies because they are useless, and instead we thank you for your hospitality....
Rather, this Stoner/Rossi/Stoner/Ducati/Rossi controversy is now cloying.
Stoner knows how to go very fast on a motorbike and his value is unquestionable. Only time will tell whether he will win titles by the pack or not; Rossi is a 9-time world champion and has won 105 races plus a ton of podiums. I hope this is even less objectionable.
Here the only element "out of square" is the Ducati.
There is not.
There never was.
And what's worse... there won't be!
Point.
At the beginning of the year the Ducati was decent (thanks to the development that Stoner had done up until then...then gradually as Ducati began to follow Rossi's instructions, the bike got worse and worse...in my opinion Stoner, in addition to being a strong driver, he is also a great test driver...
stoner and a great tester
Filippo Precious also said it
to find the defects of a motorbike you have to take it to the limit and it's not worth it...
andrea z before calling others stupid, inform yourself before shooting c……….
Everyone in Aragon went slower than last year. Reason? The potholes increased and the weather conditions were not the best, especially wind. Comparisons with last year are timeless…
….in my opinion Stoner is also a great test driver…… (by Andrea)
Yes true! And Rosy Bindi is a galactic hottie, better than Belen...
But do you really think that finding a scapegoat is of any use? Rossi or Preziosi, Hayden or Guareschi... The only certain fact is that the bike remains damn hard during bend changes and poor Vale finds himself slow on the rope, losing even on the next straight. Stoner was faster, it's true: but he rides a lot by leaning out of the bike and therefore the angle of the bike was lower. And if you think about it, the bike had another big difference, the engine. Precisely on the basis of these considerations I developed my own conviction, writing it in black and white on my blog. You can agree or not, but it's certainly more useful than blaming each other. If you want to read, just click on my name above.
Can I say something that many won't like? If I were the CEO of Ducati I would fire Preziosi on the spot. It has the best first driver of the last 20 years, paid millions of euros and a second world champion also with experience, millions of euros of budget, a very expensive structure. Zero results to the discredit of the immeasurable brand. At Preziosi's house, I'm sorry but Ferrari's Aldo Costa was a magician in comparison. At the Preziosi house, let's start rolling some heads.
@ Federico: you need a degree in engineering. to understand what you wrote! ;) but sorry, if it's enough to bend the bike less, let's take Elias, right!?
Jokes aside.. the key to the problem is far from being found, if your intuition is correct.. I'm no expert.. but I find the topic very interesting!
Either you touch the flywheel masses and reduce them (but how, without making the bike even more grumpy!?) or you make the tires capable of withstanding rough riding (but how? Only with a frame???)... maybe the engine, if you don't want to touch it, it must not be load-bearing then (it would reduce the component discharged on the tires due to the moment of inertia perhaps, right??), and therefore those who push for a deltabox are right??? help us (me) to better understand what you wrote, please!!!
Hire the technicians who developed this year's Honda as a whole, right?
Also because it shouldn't be difficult: if you propose to any foreigner, especially an oriental one, to come and experience a period of their life here in Italy, they'll do triple somersaults with joy!
And in Bologna too! Homeland of bulwarks such as tortellini eip….ni.
Oh God, judging by how Ducati is doing today, some snark too, but that's exactly what we need to overcome, right?
For Revlimiter
At this point they would change the name of the site to
“stonergrandprix” and not “motograndprix” because a person looking for information about motogp looks for it at 360 degrees and not at (90) as they give it here!
Dear pitstop,
everyone is free to go wherever they want but don't come and write "nonsense" here...
We give the right space to each rider as we have always done; where do you see that they always talk about Stoner when they have written rivers of articles not only on Rossi but also on Lorenzo, Spies, Pedrosa and so on and so forth? it would be enough to browse the site and not just focus on the ones you like!
Luckily you are a drop of water in a sea of passionate visitors who discuss civilly without placing "blames" on us that we don't have!
@ pierrr.: well, I don't think that the comments that the landlord allows us to publish here are the most suitable place for a more understandable explanation. But I gladly accept the invitation and tomorrow I will write something more intuitive but, alas, longer. And you will probably need a strong motivation to read it, I don't think it will be that light :-)
In Italy and much less in Borgo Panigale, we don't need the Japanese. Dear Revlimiter, Italian brands such as MV Agusta, MotoGuzzi, Ducati with Italian designers and technicians have made the history of motorcycles, both road and racing.
A special thanks to the moderators, you have done nothing but confirm what I think...
Bye bye never see you again!
@pit stop
I don't understand your hatred towards this site where we have always discussed animatedly, but calmly and politely. I don't know what others think but I don't want troublemakers like you here. If I were the moderator I would have banned you a long time ago! Unfortunately I'm just a "user"
the only indications of reds were the
“flex pack” turned out to be a total failure.
but Stoner for life at least doesn't denigrate his colleagues and is a simple person. anyway ducati will come out with broken bones, the media factory is paid for.
Rumors from Jerez report a session that started early, divided into many tests of a maximum of 5 laps, which ended late in the evening. Many modifications tested, including a modified engine, and times dropped from an initial 1.41 to a stable 1.39. We will see :-)
Yes, but in qualifying for the GP Stoner set a time of 1'38"755; 1'39 with the 1000cc. It's not really a great time! let's hope so!
for federico.
I really appreciated your analysis which I find very focused on everything, I obviously agree but there is one thing that I don't understand: why did Ducati not give weight to all the contraindications that this project brought with it, i.e. that it couldn't work? I would really like to know. Greetings.
Those at Ducati would also like to know why...
for Claudioippo. The answer is trivial: they didn't know. As long as the engines are similar, the defect has a similar weight for all and can be ignored. And it is precisely because the Ducati project has shown its limits that, with reasoning and analysis of the differences, we have understood the cause. These are things that can only be understood in hindsight, searching for a reason without preconceptions. If the "defect" is the same for everyone, I don't even see it. Consequently, it doesn't even occur to me to look for it :-)
I don't want to talk about the merits or demerits of the drivers, I believe that those who reach these levels always try to give the best of themselves and the vehicle they drive. Likewise, I believe that it is neither fair nor intelligent to ask a rider like Valentino (but also others who are already established) to change a riding style which, moreover, has given him and given us so much great satisfaction and emotion. Comparisons between riders are made over the course of a career or immediately when in situations as "equal terms" as possible there is a direct duel, and even there the images that are now part of the history of fast motorcycling speak volumes Sun. What instead leaves us amazed is the apparently childish behavior of those who have wanted Rossi at Ducati for a long time without understanding or worrying that it would have been an epochal change more from a technical and organizational point of view than from that of image and advertising. What can excite us Italian enthusiasts, namely a Stoner who wins a World Championship not with the usual Japanese but with a historic brand of our home, should not have deluded technicians and experts at Ducati who should have carefully analyzed the victories of 2007 and above all to understand how the Ducati project could withstand the rapid evolution that MotoGP is experiencing as well as a Yamaha which was reborn with Rossi and a Honda which had been stagnant and backward for too long and which sooner or later had to return to the top of competitiveness. You turned the page without reading what was written in the previous ones. We wanted at all costs (also because Stoner, who doesn't develop motorbikes, he drives them, coincidentally left to Honda) a rider who is not just a "rider" but like almost all the greats is a "mechanic and a designer”, does not only say what is wrong (as they are used to and want at Ducati), but also what to do to improve or solve problems. Today the photograph of Ducati in MotoGP is, in our eyes, that of a team in a frantic search for something that isn't there because perhaps it doesn't even know how to find it; all these (random?) attempts give us an image of a confused technical staff incapable of coming up with effective solutions: money problems? Of time? (that in my opinion there was), the proposed solutions seem more like a copy-paste than a project with a precise rationale. In short, a serious examination of conscience needs to be done: Ducati has the men (Valentino in the lead) who have worked miracles in Yamaha, where are they? How much space do they have in decisions to make? In short, at the end of the examination of conscience, whoever must go home and give way to those who know more, must have the humility and honesty to do so...
Paul. I do not agree. One of the mistakes was placing the responsibility for the solution on Rossi, a very fast rider but not enough of an engineer. And Rossi, from his personal and limited experience, could only say that the bike was slow to react, it had no grip at the front, the power delivery made it constantly skid, etc.
Concluding that it was the chassis. Therein lies the fault of the designers, having blindly trusted themselves by having the pilot replace them in the technical choices. The chassis is not at fault. Preziosi didn't do anything wrong there.
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